I won't even pretend to have read much of 6th edition so far - real life has got in the way - but I've dipped in an out and I have a few thoughts and questions. If anyone's able to shed any light on any of these I'd be grateful...
- Overall I like it. It seems to be a better version of 5th with some stuff that makes more sense. My only real concern is flyers, as I've never believed that the 'scale' (in real terms, i.e. a 6x4' board) of 40K is appropriate for flyers. Also - a 36" move with 4 weapons at normal BS? Jeez.
- I like the 'snap fire' idea too...though there's a caveat (see '5', below).
- Why doesn't a Hydra have the 'Interceptor' rule? For that matter, what does have the Interceptor rule - I couldn't find anything on the weapons chart which has it. It's a pity if the Hydra doesn't, as the FW fluff has always maintained that they're often used to support ground actions...although I can kinda see why GW would neuter it a little.
- The hellhound now seems a little cooler as it can fire two weapons on the move, but aside from this has anything else in the Guard codex improved much?
- I suspect I'll come back to this, but it seems to me that the one thing keeping Guard infantry in the game over the years has been the abundant number of poorly aimed very weak shots they have. Now it seems everyone will have an abundance of poorly aimed shots. Now, they may not have as many shots as the Guard, but as far as I'm aware every other faction has a basic weapon that is far better than the Str 3, no-special-rule lasgun. In fact, does any other faction have a Str 3 basic weapon? Some have Str 5! Some have 'Gauss'!
For years orkses have been able to pop off Str 4 shots with gay abandon and no-one's really cared because they can't hit a barn door at 10 paces. But now that everyone can let fly even if they can't hit the door at 5 paces, the Guardsmen are at something of a disdvantage by comparison, I feel. - On the plus side, I feel no urge so far to change my army - it still seems perfectly viable in 6th (although my beloved Penal Legion have been a little neutered).
- On the minus side, I anticipate anyone with flyers (for which read "everyone") will be able to massacre me. (1) Fly onto table 36" to wherever is desired; (2) Shoot every kickass weapon with BS4 at whatever takes its fancy in my battle line with complete impunity. *gulp* (3) Be really hard to hit back. I appreciate this is relatively 'realistic', but, er...
- Can I snap shoot at full rate of fire? What about when I'm being assaulted?
- I like the grenade rules. Although it'd be fairly fun if every one in a unit could lob them...at BS1. The Guardsman in me likes the idea of inept troops landing grenades in amongst themselves. Joyous.
Any thoughts, anyone?
- D.
A Hydra doesn't have the Interceptor rule because it has enjoyed a ridiculous undercosted value for far too long.
ReplyDeleteNow that Flyers will play a large role in the game 75 pts. for mass anti-flyer fire is an incredible bargain. Especially when combined with squadrons of Vendetta on combat-air-patrol that can choose to fire in Skyfire mode at other flyers if desired.
Guard should have no difficulties dominating the air even against Necron mass Scythe armies.
With the ability to purchase Aegis Defense Lines you have guaranteed cover for your Hydra batteries as well, making Camo Netting worth buying in 6th edition. A 3+ cover save on your Hydra Batteries makes them pretty durable AND lethal for minimal cost. No screening Chimera are necessary anymore.
Plus, the Aegis Line comes with either a Quad Gun or Icarus Lascannon too if you want to pay the extra points. Both of which come with the Interceptor rules, to answer your question of what units have that rule. Manning the emplacement with a Veteran unit giving you a BS4 Lascannon that can target flyers or units entering from reserve is pretty nice.
Finally, on the subject of the Hydra, only the Hydra gun has Skyfire, not the hull or pintle weapons, and with twin-linked it still has a decent chance of scoring a hit on ground units.
You also have the option of purchasing a Pintle Heavy Stubber. I would STRONGLY suggest it! Especially since weapon destroyed results are random now. It knocks down the chance of your Hydra gun being shot off from 50% to 33% chance. For only 10 pts? Yes, please!
actually as your hydra has 2 hydra autocannons each with 2 shots, so its already 33% and then its down to 25% !! even cooler :-)
Deleteand if youre looking for something that has improved, its definitly the barrage rules !
no more only center of the blast full strength, even if it only scarcely touches a vehicle, you get full Strength !!
and concerning the basic line troopers, now its 6 inches movement + 24 inches one shot ( 2 with FRFSRF which we're the only one to do so ) and the ability to go move a unit but remain stationary with that heavy weapon, now it can still shoot with full BF, no more whole unit has moved so no heavy etc.
Huge !
I have to admit that within our small, tight-knit gaming group we've totally overlooked flyers. That point you made about six or seven flying machines swooping over a board that's relatively about a quarter of a mile long doesn't sit right. One, maybe two yes. But this new wave of flyers is something we're going to ignore I think.
DeleteOur anonymous friend touched on one BIG point for the Guard, namely the abandoning of the blast half-strength rule. I would think that if you're a Rhino, being six feet away from an S8 battle cannon blast is NOT the same as being shot with a S4 bolter.
I'm disappointed at the 'snap shot' rule for the very reasons you've outlined - although I think it's a win as a 'charge reaction'. Guard are shooty; if a Hive Tyrant charges at you you aren't going to fiddle around with bayonets - you're going to try and shoot him. In fact, my Palladian Guard are getting a new house rule forbidding the use of snap shooting, because it's wasting ammunition! Me and Headologist are going to have a trial game next week so we'll report back.
Thanks, Trent - you've evidently thought about this a lot already! You're right about the cost of hydras (although every codex has its over- and under-priced bits) - especially being the same ocst as a hvy wpn team with three autocannon - but it's a shame that it'll now be such a no.1 bullet magnet.
ReplyDeleteOf course, Guard may currently be alone (I think?) in having a dedicated AA platform, but the way GW operate I wouldn't be surprised if they roll them out quick-sharp for other armies, not least as a number of them already exist in fluff, Epic or FW resin...not to mention these AA missiles that some armies will apparently receive.
Great point about pintle weapons though - I'd missed that and it's never a bad investment!
>Anon: Good point about FRFSRF at 24", but for the sake of a squad (with, say, sgt and special wpn) firing an extra 8 BS3 Str3 shots, I still think other armies and their weapons at 24" will come out better.
The thing about not moving hvy teams is great! Although I don't tend to include HWTs in my squads at the moment, this is an obvious rule that's been sorely missing since 2nd ed, and I like how they've done it. [Although everyone benefits, of course - not just Guard.]
As for the hydra autocannon I seem t oremember seeing somewhere that the turret counts as one weapons system for purposes of destruction, but that may be obsolete or I may simply be wrong. Anyone?
The rule for blasts is super-exciting...though I suspect it'll just lead to more short-range manticores(!) A good step forward though, and something to make vehicles (and demo charges(!)) a little more attractive than their increased vulnerability would otherwise allow.
>Scipio: I like the cut of your jib.
Now, a lot of this - I have to admit - is me being a bit stubborn: I don't want to spend money buting new models (read: 'flyers'). I like my army, and much as I love the valkyrie model I don't think it'll really 'fit' with them. Nor do I have room to lug one around!
What's more, although I think they make great dropships and light support, I don't see how anyone could peg them out as being in any way suitable for air-to-air combat. Seriously?! Disregarding how stupidly undercosted a vendetta is, can you imagine its box-y shape working as an interceptor? Ha!
The thoughts continue.
+++
Ach! I've just realised that 'Victory Points' seem to be rather like 'Kill Points' in that they're one-per-unit. Groan.
The 40K battlefield is at most like 144 yards long (6 ft by 12 inches with 1 inch as less than 2 scale yards) Make it closer to 1/10th of a mile. Pretty similar in size as a football pitch. Human being can run from 1 long sides to the other in well under 20 seconds. An aircraft will cover this in a second or two.
ReplyDeleteI think that aircraft are going to be an issue for people without army update plans. Many of the flyers were not balanced when they were just skimmers now with all the new stuff the points are going to be way off.
You are looking at snap fire the wrong way. You benefit from it more than the elite armies. You cost per shot is inherently lower due to your weaker troops and lower BS. In terms of lost effectiveness BS3 to BS1 is a 66% reduction while BS4 to BS 1 is 75%. For a single marine heavy weapon shot you expect them to hit but a guard heavy weapon you normal assume that it will probably miss so you are more likely to move and just hope luck gets the shot to hit. Lootas get the bigg boost from it since they already miss so often but have so many shots
>eriochrome: A perfect response - thank you!
ReplyDeleteThat shift in conceptualising snap fire really helps me in terms of moving-and-firing. Cheers. You're right: I genereally do assume my troops will miss, or at best get 50% hit rate.
Not sure if it can be viewed so rosily in defensive fire though (when receiving a charge)...but then again, (a) every little helps - it's more than I could do in 5th, and (b) I play Guard, so I'm not much in the habit of charging other units very often anyway!
Your're right about folks (me) having trouble with no 'army update plans'. That's my own lookout - so be it.
The only sad thing is that I got very frustrated with predictable units in 5th Ed Guard armies (valks/vends; meltavets and chimeras), and now I can envisage it's just going to be loads of valks and hydras everywhere. Yawn.
Ho-hum: at least I have a decent-looking hydra (I reckon so, anyway!)
Thanks for the alternative viewpoint. I'll mull on it...
I'm not changing a darn thing about my list. If I lose then fine, my dice usually fail me at every other game, why not 6th Ed too? :)
ReplyDeleteOther than that, 30 man-blobs all snap-firing on top of whatever shooting they previously had done doesn't sound all that shabby to this non-5th Ed player?
You're welcome Drax!
ReplyDeleteOh yeah, Anonymous' remark about blast markers reminded me about another cool advantage Guard possess that many have overlooked...
'Barrage Sniping'
The inset diagram box on p. 34 mentions:
"To determine whether a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Wound allocation, ALWAYS ASSUME THE SHOT IS COMING FROM THE CENTER OF THE BLAST MARKER, INSTEAD OF FROM THE FIRING MODEL." (emphasis added mine)
So if that Sanguinary Guard in Terminator armour leading those Blood Angels is soaking up all of your small arms fire just lob a Basilisk or Griffon shell (or combined battery of both) over his head and pound the guys behind him!
MUAHAHAHA!
It's great way of picking out specialist weapons in a squad too!
It worked that way in 5th too.
DeleteBut that was only for cover determination not as a model sniping technique.
DeletePrecisely, Eriochrome.
DeleteLand that large blast barrage pie-plate right on the head of that Marine w/Meltagun and bye-bye AT.
I think Basilisks are going to come back in a big way.
And since the Storm Eagle Rockets are Barrage, that means we get Strength 10 large blast that just needs to nick a vehicle to use full strength AND BARRAGE WEAPONS ALWAYS HIT SIDE ARMOUR.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if you have flamers, they don't need to be in the front rank to get their D3 hits when overwatching.
Its cool if you don't want to upgrade, I probably will either just do something new (based mostly on unpainted models I already own) or maybe do slight tweaks to existing armies. I think the easiest way to defend against flyers is by including as suggested an Aegis Defense line as your fortification. Adding a 96" range Icarus Lascannon makes it only 85 points and as far as I can tell from reading so far their is no way to destroy it or stop it from firing and it is both skyfire and Interceptor.
ReplyDeleteAlso if you have Psykers that can Take Divination, the #1 power allows the psyker and a unit he is with to fire their overwatch shots at their full BS and gives them counter charge too.
Huron, page 105 will show you that all gun emplacements are T7 W2 with a 3+ save. They aren't impossible to destroy but last a bit longer than the old artillery rules.
ReplyDeleteStill, 96" should cover enough of the table from just about anywhere to get a shot at a flyer right?
ReplyDeleteDrax I've been away from home for the last few weeks and missed most of the 6th hype, can I just ask, as it caught my eye, in what way the Penal Legion have been "neutered"?
ReplyDeleteTo be honest having a read around forums last night I'm quite excited about having allies. I know from what I have seen that others are very split on the subject. I'm a little disappointed that Grey Knights aren't battle brothers with anyone, I know this is probably because everybody would want them, but with guard it would make sense fluff wise more than others? I was quite looking forward to Inquisitors joining my guardsmen.
>Buffer: Welcome back! The only thing that's leapt out at me is that furious charge is less good - no longer +1 init, which mostly means they'll more likely be slaughtered before they can do anything.
ReplyDeleteObviously, they wouldn't always get furious charge anyway...
Ahh, see what you mean, well not disastrous. I think I will have to buy the new rules for my return, not quite back yet but internet available temporarily!
Delete>Buffer - Oh, and units CAN NO LONGER ASSAULT FROM RESERVE. Ouch.
ReplyDeleteAm I right in thinking deepstrikers couldn't anyway? I didn't play many games in the end under 5th, but I would have thought that's going to help me out more than hinder. Makes the AlRahem outflanking platoon much suckier though. I liked the idea of piling on from the side then charging in to cause chaos. Scratch that then, good job most of my stuff is still in production, good time for a rule change for me!
DeleteYeah - as far as I can tell deepstrikers still cannot assault unless they have some sort of special rule.
ReplyDeleteAs for Al'Rahem? Yeah - that'll be different, but somethingelse which is different is the bit (page 121) under 'Deploying Multiple Unit Choices':
"Note that, occasionally, a codex will allow a player to include several units in his army at the cost of a single force oranisation slot (like Imperial Guard infantry Platoons etc.). Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects."
...so I guess the days of platoons arriving en masse (quite sensibly) are long gone. This is a bit of a shame, fluff-wise, but at least it means that if (like me) you have heavy weapons in each platoon, then you can deploy them all at the start for best effect.
Hmmm...
Seems stupid to me. Why would a platoon arrive without its commander or vice versa? Seems a rule designed purely to counter an imperial guard issue, in terms of AlRahem that's another nail in his coffin. But your right, it means everything doesn't have to arrive at once when you don't want it to, the lord giveth the lord taketh away.....
DeleteJust noticed something else reading about weapon changes. Missile launchers have rounds which have the skyflash special rule! That's got to make them now the most versatile heavy weapon. Yes they only get one shot, but that can take out flyers, wound tanks or kill light armoured infantry with blast. Glad I got those extra praetorian missile launchers now!
ReplyDeleteYeah...I don't know if it's clear yet who has them though, as I think I read on one of the blogs that they've not been added to missile launchers in any of the FAQs. They're certainly not added in the Guard FAQ anyway, so I'm not counting any chickens.
ReplyDeleteNot that my missile launchers ever hit anything ever though. Ever. Ever.
Surely as it's in the main rule book under missile launchers in the weapons section, anyone who has missile launchers now comes under that entry. So if you have a missile launcher, whatever the army, you have the new rounds. That's why they haven't put it in all the different faqs?
Delete@Admiral Drax: Then stop calling them "miss"ile launchers. Call them treadfethers or anything else. It helps. I base that on science.
Delete;)
-Yeti
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DeleteBuffer - Re Flakk Missiles, it clearly states in the rule book that '...all missile launchers come with frag and krak missiles, and some have the OPTION to be upgraded to have Flakk missiles' So nope, no one gets them at all thus far.
ReplyDeleteTrent - If you check the Skyfire rule a little more closely, it states 'Any unit with the Skyfire rule, or firing a weapon with the Skyfire rule may use its normal BS when shooting at flyers, but will only be able to Snap Fire at ground units'
Thus, if you fire the hydra-autos then EVERY gun on the model fires at normal BS flyers/BS 1 ground units. However don't fire your Hydra-autos and suddenly your Heavy Bolter can hit on 4's instead of Sixes. Must really rattle the Hydra about firing them big guns. That'd explain why they're so good at gunning down flyers! :/
Ahh, having not seen the rules myself and just going off other forums I didn't realise that. Seems a massive oversight then. To be honest ML seem overpriced anyway for BS3 models so giving them the new rounds for free would make them much more competitive, shame.
Delete>Buffer: yeah, I only ever tend to find missile launchers as useful as they ought to be when used with CoyHQ orders. But then, being Ld7 they tend to fail them...
ReplyDeleteFor guard vs. Flyers don't forget your orders! Twin-linking those snap shots against flyers improves your odds a good deal. Plus, you can still snap fire if you've gone to ground...so if you're facing a bunch of flyers and will be snap firing anyways, go ahead and get the improved cover.
ReplyDeleteOh, and don't think it was answered - #8 - yes you get full rate of fire on snap shots/overwatch. Blasts/templates can't fire, but templates on overwatch fire get d3 hits.
ReplyDelete